The Hidden Danger of Selling Half a Million Books with David Gregory, Best-Selling Author

What would you do if you achieved your greatest creative goal, only to struggle to experience that level of success again? 

If you've ever wondered how to handle sudden success, but keep your faith when you don't see that success sustained, this is the episode you need to hear. 

Best-selling author David Gregory saw his book, "Dinner with a Perfect Stranger" reach the New York Times bestseller list, selling over a half a million copies and being adapted into a movie. By every definition, he was achieving every writer's dream. But what happened next will show you that trusting God with your creative calling isn't as simple as it seems. 

Listen to discover how handling success the right way, redefining success, and keeping your priorities in line can help you enjoy the best of your creator lifestyle, even if you never reach the heights that society tells you to reach for. 

Learn more about David Gregory and his resources here: 

freewithgod.com

Transcript

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What would you do if you achieved your greatest creative goal? You reach the pinnacle of your profession, you gain credibility, fame and success all at once, only to struggle to experience that level of success again. Would you feel saddened, desperate? Would you be angry at God for keeping you from continuing your dream? If you've ever wondered how to handle sudden success, but keep your faith when you don't see that success sustained, this is the episode you need to watch. Best-selling author David Gregory saw his book Dinner with a Perfect Stranger reach the New York Times bestseller list, sell over a half a million copies and get adapted into a movie. By every definition, he was achieving every writer's dream. But what happened next will show you that trusting God with your creative calling isn't as simple as it seems. I'm Alan Paul, host of God in the Gigs, and I invite you to stick around and hear how David redefined success by trusting God with his creative career and how you can do the same. I'd love to welcome David Gregory to that God in gigs show. How are you doing my friend? Hey Alan, thanks so much for having me on. It's absolutely a pleasure. And as I was just mentioning, I am uh really just enamored with your story, looking at your bio in Amazon and just seeing how you went from spreadsheets to bestselling author. now in all these other areas, you have truly had an amazing creative career, So that's what we're going to kind of get into, like your journey. But also when someone else is looking at your story, like how can they have a similar, but not the same story in terms of walking out their creator life. So I'm so glad you're here. would love to start with this kind of question because I know everyone here is the 32nd elevator pitch. I'm a this, I'm a that. And of course, if they've read the bio by now, if they clicked, most likely they're very interested in what you have to say. But I do like to ask it like this. If no one reads your bio, if they're finding you at a dinner party, at a church, at a lobby, and they just walk up and... They say, hello, what are those couple things you want them to know about you if they don't read the bio? What are those couple things that just like the first kind of things you say, hey, hi, I'm David. And then what are those things that are most important that they learn about you? Well, first, I hope it's at a dinner party because that sounds pretty good. ah If I'm sitting at a dinner party with somebody and they were to ask me that question, I suppose my answer would be I'm an author. I write full time. I um write both fiction and nonfiction. And uh three of my books have been made into full length movies. And uh one is being pitched in Hollywood right now as a possible streaming series. And uh I also do work for other people developing Christian discipleship material and so forth. And so I help ministries uh develop material that they can get out to the people that they minister to. But mostly I'm an author. That's what I love to do. I speak around the country and sometimes overseas from time to time as well. That wasn't 30 seconds. It was 60 maybe. no, it's still, but it gave so much of the story in just those segments of writing and teaching and helping people. So it gives you that. That's kind of what I look for. Like what's the picture of somebody who's walking out this lifestyle? I try not to say career as much. Even as you talked about what you do, it's much more than just what you do, right? It's something that a passion kind of bursts in you and that God kind of leads you into almost this lifestyle. this whole package of who you are versus just a specific thing. So that's why I like to hear, hey, it's not just the book, it's not just the author, it's many other facets of your life. So getting into that, I did read a little bit about the beginning of your life. It did not sound like you started with the creator or creative life in mind. So can you talk a little bit about like, how did you even get into the writing profession? I actually have a business degree from the University of Houston. uh I spent 10 plus years uh in corporate HR and working for a couple of management consulting firms uh doing uh compensation and benefits consulting. And so I spent most of my days on spreadsheets. um then I kind of, I left my job, which was at Texas Instruments at the time. and went back to graduate school. This was in my 30s. I kind of wanted to figure out what I wanted to do when I grew up. ah My career was fine, but I just thought, you know, do I really want to be doing this when I'm 50? And to me, the answer to that was I'd really rather be doing something that I personally find a bit more meaningful and more directly impacting people's lives. And so I ended up getting a master's degree from University of North Texas. and a master's degree from Dallas Theological Seminary. And I worked for a couple of ministries and doing writing and such. And uh then I ended up uh starting writing on my own. And so it really wasn't until I was in my late 30s that I started producing books at all. wow. Okay, so this definitely speaks to me because I was also in a different profession, in a sense, teaching full-time. ah So teaching full-time and then into ministry and then God kind of shoves you along the way like, maybe this is not it. So talk a little bit about those first few years of uh figuring out, hey, I should be doing something that would be more fulfilling, but it's in mid-career or it's mid, I don't know, call midlife, but yeah, you're already fully into. your adult life and your adult working life and suddenly you're starting to feel this change and shift to something that you'd rather do. So talk a little bit about that. Was it fearful? Was it uh confusing? Was it, do I leave my full-time position? Can I make money? Will people read my stuff? What were those first few moments or steps of getting into writing? Yeah, I left my job at Texas Instruments and just went straight back to graduate school. I wasn't quite sure where that would lead and it didn't lead into anything that I expected it to lead into really. um Would I recommend somebody quitting their job to do that? No. ah But I had saved up quite a bit of money. I was pretty miserly back then. I still have some miserly traits, that's uh loosened up a little bit. But I had saved up a lot of money. And so basically I had enough to just take a few years off and figure out what I wanted to do next. And so that's what I did. um Actually, I went into uh the radio television film program at Southern Methodist University. And what I found... was that I liked the writing most and that the actual uh radio or TV or film production wasn't really my cup of tea, but I knew I wanted to do something creative. And what I found was I really liked the writing. And so uh that's what I started gravitating toward. I ended up, as I said, going on staff with a ministry where I just knew some people and they needed somebody to come on staff and do some theological type writing and uh writing for uh discipleship materials for them. And so I did that for about three years. I decided to go to uh Dallas Seminary because I thought, well, if I'm going to do this kind of thing full time, then having a seminary degree might help. And so I went to Dallas Seminary after I left Dallas Seminary. ah I went to work for uh a large international radio ministry called Insight for Living headed by Chuck Swindoll. And it worked for them for several years doing writing and editing. And so that's kind of the pool I was swimming in at that point. And it was actually while I was at seminary that I took a class on creative writing and I took another class on creativity. And it was during that time that I started thinking for the first time about writing in writing and fiction. had already about the time I went to seminary, I was 40 now and I had just self-published a nonfiction book along with a former pastor called The Rest of the Gospel. And I had no idea how well it would do, but it was really his material. And I just wanted to put it into print and put it out there and hopefully it would be a blessing to people. And it ended up selling over 100,000 copies just by word of mouth. And so uh which was way beyond anything I expected. And I did almost nothing to market it. Basically, I just kind of threw it out there and there were some people that uh he had spoken to at retreats and conferences over the years. And uh I just informed little pockets of a few pockets of people around the country. Hey, uh Dan Stone has a book out and I was the co-author. And uh so it just took off from there and it impacted people so much that as I said, it up, it's sold over a hundred thousand copies and it's still selling pretty well. So um anyway, while I was at seminary, I had the idea of uh There was some material that I wanted that I had gathered from seminary that I wanted to put into book form, thinking nonfiction, because I'd never written fiction before. But God gave me this idea to put it into the form of a story of a, the story ended up being about a guy from Cincinnati in his mid to late 30s, an agnostic, skeptic, and he, receives a dinner to dine at a nice Italian restaurant one night with Jesus of Nazareth. And so he decides to go thinking some friends are playing a prank on him, but he'll get a nice Italian meal out of it and see what they have up their sleeve. And so he is seated with this guy who claims to be Jesus. And so he starts just kind of playing along with the whole thing with this actor, he assumes, you know, playing the part of Jesus. And he discovers in the course of their two hour dinner together, this really is Jesus. And so it's kind of one of those, know, who would you most want to have dinner with? What would you ask Jesus if you had him to yourself for two hours kind of scenarios? And really my heart in writing it, I started writing it as an independent study project my last semester at seminary. And then I finished it after I graduated. And my heart in writing it really was just to self-publish it and to have some copies on hand and to be able to give copies to friends and family and anybody I might get to know. Really just to share the message of Christ with them and my hope was that it was entertaining and engaging and if somebody read the first few pages they would want to keep reading. The whole thing was short, it's like 96 pages. Hmm. And it was just a uh brief way to share the message and the life of Christ with someone. And I kind of always considered myself to be the world's worst evangelist. uh sitting down and actually talking about my faith one-on-one with somebody was something that I was pretty awful at doing. And so I just thought, well, I'm horrible at doing that, but I'm a pretty good writer. So I'll write this story. And uh I'll have some copies available and God will just take it from there. Well, they ended up taking it to places I never imagined because really that was my whole vision for the book. And, but I had a contact because of my earlier nonfiction book, The Rest of the Gospel, I had a contact at Random House. I sent them a copy of Dinner with a Perfect Stranger, my self-published version. And I just said, hey, I've published this book. If you're interested, you know, take a look at it. Well, they got back with me and they said, we want to uh publish your book. So I said, great. So we signed a contract. They were going to print 20,000 copies, which is a lot for an unknown author. And well, as it turned out, by the time the book came out, they printed 200,000 copies and they launched a huge marketing campaign to because they thought they could really make a go of this book. And so it had its own write up in the Wall Street Journal and USA Today and all these other marketing efforts. And it was released in the summer of 2005. And within a few weeks, it had hit the New York Times Extended Bestseller list. And they ended up selling about half a million copies. And so this little book that I wanted to have on hand in my garage to give to family and friends and people that I met to share the message of Jesus. All of a sudden, here was this New York Times bestselling book. uh about the time, well, shortly before the book came out, ah a film producer, independent film producer from Louisville named Jefferson Moore called me and said, I've read your book. A friend had given him this, self-published version. And ah he said, I want to make a movie of your book. So it's like, And so, ah He was flying through Dallas, which is where I was living at the time. have lunch, we got to know each other. We signed a contract. He made a movie of it. It ended up selling tons of DVDs and aired tons of times on Trinity Broadcasting Network, TVN. I ended up writing two sequels for Random House. He ended up making two more movies. And so... literally millions of people and ended up reading the books or watching the movies and oh So this quote world's worst evangelist uh God used to just put the gospel into the hands of millions of people not only in the US but around the world and so Needless to say all of that was was quite a shock to me and Nothing of what I expected, but I had a fictional fiction writing career just dumped in my lap. And so that's really how I ended up where I am today. Okay, so what an incredible story of writing a story, right? I love how the story writer also has a story as that comes along with the story that you wrote. And the other part that comes to mind is this incredible uh life that was kind of thrust upon you. As you said, you weren't looking for fame, you weren't looking for a bestseller. You were serving, uh as you mentioned, with Insight for Living and Chuck Swindoll with amazing creators of people, communicators is a better word, communicators of the gospel. And yet God kind of chose you and your work and your mentality of being humble, thinking you're the world's chief of centers. I'm thinking the same thing, chief of centers, right? And then elevates your platform or your work. Now here's the interesting thing I'm curious about. that might lead into our second half of this conversation, which is your own growth, spiritual growth, your own mentality. having seen the success, did it change anything negative or positive? I want to be very sensitive. I don't want to assume that it's like a fame is bad and that, you know, and it turns your life upside down. But I am curious, like when this success comes and God clearly is behind it, how, what did you do personally to kind of adjust? Did you try to raise your own platform to be alongside the book or were you more in the background? Did you not change anything? Like how did you change your approach? If you did. Yeah, that's a really good question. I didn't really try to raise my platform because the publishing world was so different back then. This was back in 2005 and people didn't really have platforms. I mean, you know, and so, you ah I started up a small website, but that mostly was to handle uh independent sales of the rest of the gospel and I was still doing my own order fulfilling at that point. Literally, people would call on the phone or email and say I want 20 copies of the rest of the gospel. I would pack them up and mail them. And so, I mean, people weren't selling books through Amazon for the most part yet or wherever. And so, Random House wanted me to write a sequel, which I did. And that was something that was on my heart to write. And so the sequel was about uh the Jesus character getting together with, uh having a lengthy conversation with the main character in the first book, having a lengthy conversation with his wife on an airplane trip from Cincinnati to Dallas, then with a labor in Dallas, and then a continuing trip to uh Arizona and so ah he's sitting next to her on both trips and unlike the first book uh called well I'm like dinner with a perfect stranger where Jesus immediately said I says I'm Jesus in the second book called a day with a perfect stranger the Jesus character never identifies himself and so her life has been turned upside down because it's three weeks later and from her perspective her husband who has that night by the end of the evening places his faith in Christ has become this religious fanatic and she hates it. And she doesn't want to be married to this person. And so she's contemplating divorce, which she was already contemplating. And so this guy sits down next to her, they start talking, you know, and so they basically ended up spending the whole day together because it's these two flights and they finally get off the plane and he walks away and she finally realizes at the end of the book, oh, that was Jesus. And so it's a totally different approach. And the book is really written much more from a woman's, how a woman would react to this situation than a guy. And so that was really on my heart to write. by the third, so that was just the next year, I started writing that book after Dinner with a Perfect Stranger came out. My third book, which was called The Next Level, was something that the publisher really wanted, hey, why don't you write this kind of book? I wanted to write another sequel, but they didn't want that. Why don't you write this kind of book? And so honestly, I started kind of getting into the publishing world grind of trying to produce books that would uh fit a niche within what, you know, customers might be looking for and what might be popular at that time. The book wasn't all that great and it didn't sell well. And so all of a sudden this, you know, huge success, the overnight success that I had had with with Dinner with a Perfect Stranger, uh by the time the third book came around, rather than selling half a million copies, it was selling 20,000 copies. And but they had already signed me to another contract. And so I wrote the first book in that, was my first full length novel called The Last Christian, which actually turned out really well. It got nominated for a Christie Award for uh best Christian fiction for that year and was a finalist in its category. uh It's a really good book. um But it didn't sell very well either in part because it's a Christian science fiction and that genre just doesn't even exist. so, in any case, what had started off as this hugely successful career now was down to kind of this mediocre career and then Random House canceled my contract and so then I had essentially no career and... There were two more publishers that ended up publishing two books of mine. One was a third Perfect Stranger book, Night with a Perfect Stranger, and then another short novella that I wrote called Open. But since then, that last one was in 2016, and since then, I've just self-published everything. In part because it gives me lot of freedom to do what I want to, but mostly because publishers just aren't interested. Wow. And so ah my story is kind of rags to, mean, riches to rags. And uh so it's been interesting. It's been an interesting path ah because I think in part, I've kind of always been chasing, okay, what can I do to write another book that will get into the hands of millions of people and impact millions of people? Because that's really my heart. And God really hasn't done that yet. uh so, ah but I think realistically, if I look back at all the things that have happened with with, you know, the things that I've done that have been successful, it was all God doing it. I mean, I wrote the books, but I had no plan for to try to get a publisher to publish Dinner with a Perfect Stranger. I certainly had no plan for a movie producer to call me and say, I want to make a movie of your book. And so all of these things just, uh, I mean, God just, just, as I said, just dumped them into my lap. And so I've gotten to the point really in my career where I have, um, really just had to settle upon the reality that, you know, these things really are in God's hands. And if he wants to, to do something with something that I've produced, That's up to him. Does that mean I don't do anything with marketing? No, although I'm kind of ah the world's worst marketer. uh you're trying to trademark the world's worst at this point. don't know if this is a humility move or a marketing move. I mean, technically, like I said, it immediately makes me want to say no, then wait, what if he's marketing himself? No, let him own it. Let's just say that all of my efforts at trying to market my own material and get attention through websites, social media, oh whatever. None of it has done much. But here's what's interesting about this. I love this conversation. This literally could not be a better conversation for this day and time. Because you mentioned when this happened, it had nothing to do with your authority, gravitas, social media platform followers. None of that existed, right? So as you just said, it was clearly God who put his hand on that book and knew exactly who it needed to be sent to, which publisher would pick it up. And then as you mentioned in your third book, by this time, Now it's almost as if people expect the anointing. And I don't know about what's the publishing house, whether it's a Christian, well, random house, I'm sure there was a Christian imprint, But, right. But still their job is to move books and their, I mean, again, this goes right into me as far as Christian music as well. It's very, very much very similar situation where you have Christian songwriters and people who are very, very much in love with Jesus. And they know that everything they need to produce needs to be from heaven and needs to be I know it didn't all these other beautiful words, but then you're in an industry and an industry by all purposes and definitions means producing product and and selling products. So the fact that, and I, I did kind of feel almost like a visceral, like, no, you can't say riches to rags. Cause I don't consider what you did. If you told me right now, I could sell 20,000 books. I would be signing up like immediately, but would too now. my god. And that's what I mean by when you said that the publisher considered it a failure because of the success of the first one. And I feel again, I think we can definitely talk to some people right now who are listening and watching, is how do you determine success in terms of both your career and spiritually in terms of what God wants? Because as you said, if God's... Desire was for you to continue selling millions of copies in order to fulfill your purpose Then god must be missing out on something because he's not doing that So I guess my question is is now that you're at this stage where you're creating what you're creating now Are you and then I know it sounds very very? Pointed so I don't mean to be a pointed question But are you still searching for that kind of success or do you believe god has moved? To where you have a different definition of success in terms of what you're doing right now Yeah, I think um God has definitely brought me to the place where I'm much more able to say my definition of success is to do the things that God lays on my heart to do and directs me to do and that I feel that it's God's next ah activity or project that essentially he wants to do through me. You know, um over and over again, if you read the Gospel of John, Jesus says, I don't do anything on my own initiative. I just do what I see the Father doing. I just do what I hear from the Father. And I'm convinced that that's the way we are designed to live too. But it's very easy to run out in front and to say, okay, I've got these great ideas and I've got these dreams and I've got these goals. And so this is what I'm going to accomplish. Hmm. And God has brought me, and honestly, God will use that too. It's not like that is necessarily a negative thing, but God has brought me to the point where I'm much more content just saying, God, what are you laying on my heart to do? I mean, I have several possible book projects that I thought of and I thought, you know, that would make a good book. I would enjoy writing that, blah, blah. But as I prayed about it, just kind of sensed, you know, I don't think God is in that. And on the other hand, I think that he has given me a project or two that he probably is in. And honestly, one of them uh I wrote last uh fall, and it was a book, it was kind of a fairy tale type book that I really just wrote for the fun of it. And it took me about three days to write the whole thing. um And God just brought it to mind literally this morning. And ah I thought of some ways that I could change it to make it very accessible by a younger audience. By younger, I mean, ah you know, eight to 12. And so really, my next book, I'm thinking, might be a children's book. I don't know anything about the children's book market. um I honestly would have no expectations that this would sell a bunch of copies, but if that's what God is laying on my heart to do, then he has a reason for it. He's going to use it in the way that he wants to use it. And uh I think my role is just to trust the leading of the Holy Spirit and to go with it. ah So I can't again, I'm not prophetic. There's none of these things, right? We're not going to the spooky and all that kind of stuff, but There is purpose and pattern right there is purpose and pattern and the last time you wrote something that God used you use it sounds like those exact same words you had no idea no expectations and It just seems like again talking to every single creator who feels that God is moving on their heart to do something Once you're you release that expectation And this is very weird balance. I've had so many podcasts with financial people and everybody who's like, okay, you should have big goals and want to achieve and make lots of money so you can bless more people, right? And then at exact same time, it's the widow's might and God is not interested necessarily in the amount of money that you can make if you can bless someone that's right next door with a sandwich and with the $5 thank you and God bless you type thing. where he's not concerned about the way we look at it. So I love the fact that whether it's a children's book, whether it's your work now with freewithgod.com, whatever that is, it's now feels like it's coming with less pressure. And the scripture that comes to mind is the blessing of the Lord make it rich and he adds no sorrow. So it sounds like you're in a place where even if you do, you know, it would be nice to have that great author success like you had, I think it sounds like your self-worth is not attached to that anymore. It sounds like. Yeah, I've had a fascinating experience with this over the last year. And it has to do with my latest book that I just came out with last August. um The book is called One of Us. And uh it's my second full length novel. um I had the idea for this book for about 10 years. And I finally got around to being able to write it. And uh the premise of the book is really simple. ah I've simply taken essentially a harmony of the four gospels from the New Testament Matthew, Mark, Luke and John and I've taken that story and transferred it from first century Israel to 21st century America. And so the book basically asked the question, what would it look like if Jesus, instead of coming to first century Israel, if his first appearance was to America here and now? And so Unlike, I mean, various people have written stories about Jesus in the present tense, I mean, in the here and now, including me, with Dinner with a Perfect Stranger and such. ah What makes this book different is really uh I've taken the gospels and it's just a direct transfer of the same story from one place to the next. And so instead of relating to, you know, fishermen and shepherds from the first century. He's relating to, you know, computer programmers and truck drivers and, you know, nurses and, whatever. And so, and so I ended up writing the book and my goal was to make it as as faithful to the biblical story as I possibly could. Now, everything doesn't transfer, of course. Course. We don't have a temple. We don't have the same religious system. You know, we're not occupied by Romans. And so everything doesn't transfer. But I was amazed at how much could transfer. And so the story really is about, you know, Jesus, uh the Jesus character, his name is Manuel. He has an Anglo father and a Mexican mother. He's an auto mechanic from McAllen, Texas. And the story starts off with a John the Baptist character named Juan Carlos, who is a Mexican preacher who from the Mexican side wanders into the Rio Grande and starts preaching and gathering the following. He starts baptizing people. And so that's where the Gospel of Mark starts. And it just the story just takes off there and goes all the way through the crucifixion and the resurrection and the ascension of Christ. And so. uh I have 12 disciples and they do this around the country including into Mexico tour. so actually it was really engaging and challenging to write with each story from the gospels just to ask myself, okay, what would this look like in modern terms? And so the story of the... of the guys lowering their, uh the four friends lowering their friend on a mat through the roof ends up being Jesus is preaching at the football of the manual is preaching at the football stadium in Knoxville, Tennessee. And, you know, a hundred thousand people and there's a helicopter that descends on the field, uh you know, unscheduled and, you know, the same scene, you know, unfolds. And so, um so in any case, I was really pleased with how the book turned out. And my goal in the book really was to enable readers to kind of have an outside the box view of Jesus ah by looking at the Manuel character and how he was relating to people and such. And I think it's oftentimes when we read through the gospels and everything becomes so familiar to us. It's like, here's the parable of the good Samaritan. OK, I know that one. Here's the parable of the prodigal son. I know that one. here's where Jesus, you know, heals the woman with the, you know, with the issue of blood. I know that one. And it just all becomes very familiar. And I wanted to write it in such a way that people would read each chapter and think to themselves, oh, I've never really quite thought about that story this way before. And I wanted it both to be biblical and illuminating. And so in any case, I was really pleased with how the book turned out. ah One of the people that I asked to endorse it was a really good uh friend of mine who's an author, actually he's a better writer than I am, in Canada, and he's written some great books. And we were emailing back and forth, he read the book, emailed me back and he said, I think this is fantastic. I think you've got another bestseller on your hands here. I would not at all be surprised if it sells more than The Dinner with a Perfect Stranger. And so I self-published it and released it. almost 12 months ago now, last August. And it has sold about 500 copies. Wow. And so here I'm thinking, okay, I've got another bestseller on my hands. It's going to get out to tons of people. It's going to, you know, I really think people are going to start talking about this book. I kind of had visions of, know, the shack in my head and, know, it just kind of spread like wildfire by word of mouth and blah, blah, blah, blah. And it's just, it's done a face plant as far as book sales have gone. Now the people who've read it that I've spoken to, they loved it. Yeah. that was a fantastic book. I love it. But it just hasn't sold. and so. So it's forced me to kind of say, OK, God, what are we up to here? Because you I know that you laid this uh on my heart and there was some miraculous financial provision for God to enable me to write this and develop myself to writing it. And to be honest, I don't know what he has planned with it. Other than at this point, all I can do is trust that uh he has a purpose for it. And I think it's to go beyond selling 500 copies. And um one of the things that I know that is happening with it is I've had several people ah that I've been in conversations with say, hey, I know somebody in the movie industry and I would love to send them a copy of your book. And so as it turned out, just about a month and a half ago, I had a uh cousin walk into a coffee shop in the Dallas area and uh she ran into somebody and he was reading my original non-fiction book, The Rest of the Gospel. And she said, and she said, I know that guy. And she had met this guy before in her work. And so she sat down with him and they started talking about my bond. He's part of this podcast that he wanted me to, um, uh, to be a part of a ministry called rise up Kings. And so I, yeah. And so I drove up to Fort Worth is Fort Worth actually, and, did the podcast. Well, recently they had had it on as one of their guests, the co-creator of the chosen. And so they said, Hey, you know, we'd be happy to send a copy of one of us to. this guy, just had him on as a guest and you know, we're in touch with it. It's like, great, send him a copy. So I assume they did. And I've got another couple of friends, including the film producer from Louisville who have said the same thing to me. And so, you know, maybe God, you know, isn't gonna have a lot of this book sell a whole lot of, uh you know, in print copies at this point, but maybe he wants to make a movie out of Hmm. I've always thought it would make a great movie. And so uh the bottom line is I don't know what he has in store. And um I just know that uh he doesn't want me to try to be God in regard to this book and to make something happen with it that uh through all of this, you know, trying on my own to desperately try to make it successful. uh He has taught me. Hey, that's not the way I work with you. And you know, I watch podcasts sometimes on YouTube and you know, the marketers or people that have been successful in certain realms or whatever. And it's like, well, maybe I should do that. Maybe I should do that. And every time the Holy Spirit is just saying, no, maybe you shouldn't. ah It's not because it's a bad idea. It's just not who, it's not, it's because it's not who I am. That's not what he has given me to do. And so he's just told me, what I've given you to do and put the rest in my hands. Gosh, it's such an important lesson for us to learn. And what I really was thinking was even when you mentioned The Chosen and you mentioned some of these other platforms where people have taken the gospel and presented it in new ways, right? mean, look at Eugene Peterson and the message, right? All these different ways where people have said, okay, the story is the story. Truth is truth. There's not going to be change. It's just going to be creatively presented again. And so God gave you a vision to present it again. And my immediate thought was to the other authors and writers and creators who are going through what you're going through right now, right? Because, you know, again, he puts this treasure in earthen vessel, so the power of God might be a Christ and not in us. So clearly you're an earthen vessel who's willing to create the work, willing to sit down, write it. You know, that's another thing we can talk about is just the process of continuing to write, even when you don't see the results, right? So the first thing I want to ask is your advice to writers who may either be at the beginning or maybe have had some success, but like you are trying to say, okay, well, where are the sales? What is your advice to them knowing what you know now in terms of, I'd say number one is the spiritual, but then number two, the practical of continuing to write, continuing to create. So what would you tell someone who's, you know, that beginning to intermediate stage of writing? Yeah. I just, really think that that it's critical for us to accept that what ends up happening with the stuff that we create, especially with the art that we create in whatever realm that we do that in, it's really in God's hands. And to accept that, um as you indicated before, touching the lives of a few people as opposed to, you know, three million or whatever, it's worth it. I wrote this little book about four or five years ago called, If Jesus Loves Me, Why Isn't This Working? And I was real pleased with the book. It really, it's a message about uh the reality of Christ living in us and living his life through us and us learning to depend on him. in him living through us as opposed to depending on our own efforts to live the Christian life. It's really kind of an exploration of Galatians 2.20. uh And so I'm real pleased with how the book turned out. It's pretty short. I self-published it. And it hasn't sold a ton of copies by any means. But I had this guy, uh associate pastor. assistant pastor from the San Antonio area who read this book and he said it totally changed my life. And he started then ministering with it to people and he had a big ministry to uh drug addicts and alcoholics and just people down and out. And he said to me, he said to me one time and he used to just buy books by the boatload. Send me another 30 books, send me another 30 books. uh He said, you would not, you wouldn't have any idea how many lives I've seen changed by giving them this book and sitting down with them and going through it with them and just seeing the Holy Spirit work in their lives. Well, that is just thrilling. mean, it's just, you know, forgot to have taken something I've written into impact lives that way. And so, you know, how many, how many copies of that book have sold? uh through either through Amazon or I've sold myself just out of my house, you know, less than a thousand. But for, for, you know, dozens of lives, if not more, to actually genuinely been changed by something I've written, I mean, it's just like, well, how could I not be thrilled with that? And so, you know, God is really in charge of the scope. And so, you know, I've known people that are involved in creating Christian music. I think it's the same way. know, with Christian music, it's even more the case because, you know, you'll hear, ah you know, I'll hear feedback on books. like, you know, this book really impacted my life. ah I'm guessing, this is just a guess, but you would know better than I would. But I'm guessing, you know, with Christian music or people who, you know, do Christian painting or whatever it might be. It's very difficult to assess what impact that is having upon people. But, ah but yeah, I just, I believe that God is in it. mean, he enables us to express the life of Jesus through us in these creative ways. And there's a reason for Hmm, and what I... think it delights him to be able to do it. Absolutely. yeah. But the thing that I wanted to really impress both upon our listeners and even to you is only the visible feedback is what we can call success, right? The visible people that responded. Podcast is another perfect example where literally we're saying right now, and there's very few comment sections. There's very few things where you'll find out later, but in heaven, of course, we believe we'll find out that... I was writing even about some of these uh recent creatives that passed away and big stars that have passed away. And people were processing that. And the Bible is very clear. Blessed are they that die in the Lord, henceforth they will see for their labors and their works will follow them. And so the fact that we have a parade of work, a parade of praise in a sense, following us, you don't know how long that parade goes after you're done with the work because Yeah. there's so many ripples, there's so few people that we see visibly, but those ripples, the person that ministered to that person, that ministered to that person, and because this person was changed, they ministered to this person, and this person is the one that ends up saving thousands upon thousands upon thousands of souls, right, because of the ripple effect. So I think part of this, I love that you're opening this up, David, and that title just hits so hard. If Jesus loves me, why isn't this working? Yeah. Because obviously Jesus loves us more than he loves what we do. So that part is not a question. It's just that we get so caught up in what we can see the visible rewards when our treasure really is in heaven. So the second half, which you already alluded to, was in terms of the continuing to write. Because after you get your mind off of, this may not sell a million copies or whatever, how do you stay motivated in terms of Do you wait for the inspiration to hit? Is it other things that kind of help you to continue because you can't even give God something to work with if you don't first write it down. So is your process still daily? Is it weekly? Is it waiting for inspiration? How do you maintain that so that you do have something to present even when it's not necessarily market driven? I may be, I may be the world's worst. This is the world. Okay. This is gonna be the title. This is gonna three times as completion, right? Three times as the perfect. So the world's so my interview way I have to title it now. We gotta finish this because this is a creative the ADD is working now. The title of the interviews interview with the world's worst author. That point is we are going to do so. I got it. I may be the world's least disciplined writer. Okay. Honestly, I have tried to discipline myself as a writer for decades now. And it just never happens. And... um freeing so many of us. All right. You see these four behind me? You see this? That's because that's all there is. I've been I the first one came out 2016. OK. And so what you see behind me is the scope of my entire work over 10 years. And it's exact same situation. So I'm so glad you're freeing people with this with this with this confession. So, ah you know, I mean, I've read all the writing books and, you know, all the writing advice and, okay, you know, I need to get up at 6 o'clock in the morning and write until 10 or 12. you know, you do that every day and, you know, you'll have a new book written in no time. you know, all of that is probably true. I just, it just never quite seems to happen with me. And so, m I've gotten to the point where I finally have had to just accept, you know, that's just not really my personality. I'm the most spontaneous person I know. I mean, I'm just, you know, I'm always willing to drop anything, you know, to drop anything I'm doing. It's, you know, one of my kids will say, you know, hey, dad, let's go do this. Sure, let's go do it. You know, I've got all this work. sir, let's go do it. And so... That's just kind of the way I am. And so I've really just accepted, I'm just not a, I don't approach writing in a real disciplined way as far as a writing schedule regimen. And so to answer your question, I really throw myself into projects when I'm inspired to, and especially fiction. With nonfiction, yes, I, want to throw myself into projects if the Holy Spirit is leading me to do it. um Perhaps with non-fiction, mean, non-fiction is so much easier to write. uh Fiction is work. And non-fiction is just, you know, just like writing a, you know, high school essay. um so, especially with fiction, I write when I'm inspired. And so I've, you know, The last book I wrote, as I said, uh One of Us, it came out almost a year ago and I haven't, well, then I wrote this kind of, uh Once Upon a Time, uh kind of Princess story kind of book last November. As I said, it just took me a few days to write. I just put it in a drawer and uh haven't done, haven't written anything since, uh as far as fiction goes. which is fine. I haven't really been inspired to do that. And now all of sudden, mean, literally the last about three hours, I had these thoughts about this, about turning this story into a children's book. And that's probably what I'll do this weekend because I can't wait to get up in the morning and start working on it. And so um I've just kind of trust gotten to the point where I'm willing to trust. Well, that's, that's the way That's the personality God gave me and just to be at peace with that. This is so freeing because again, between the expectations for the success of selling millions of copies and then realizing that, it's not all about the millions of people who are readers or the book publishing deals and all that kind of stuff. And then even the freedom from feeling like you have to have a certain kind of writing career, right? Where it's either movies or it's this placement or this person. What you just said is very, very key and I don't think you might have called it even yourself. When you said you're most spontaneous so that your children, so your family, so that your people that are around you have access to you, that is a huge, that's a measure of success. Like the time freedom, the ability to say yes, I just want to say yes to the people who want my attention and want my time and that, and not be a slave to the constant marketing hustle. I'm a platform, I have to. have to show up for people in a certain way who, yes, it's ministry and sometimes you have to show up for people that you don't know, but our first ministry is at home. So you've already said so much that frees, again, people from to be creative and to give God back what they have in their heart, whether it be music, art, film, whatever, writing, but to do so in a way that fits them, your individual personality, your individual creative journey, which honestly, that is literally what I think God has been trying to like. helped me hone my message because I have the exact same struggle. I a podcast for musicians? Am I a church musician? Am I this? Am I that? Should I be selling millions of books? Should I be selling millions of copies? Should there be millions of downloads? Is it a failure if only three people saw it? So literally the same thing you're saying in terms of books, it goes across the board to all of us. So I do like to wrap it up with this question. I think it's a perfect question for you because you've literally just laid out so vulnerably and transparently what it's really like to deal with the artist's lifestyle and to see success, then redefine success. If you could talk to the David that had just walked out with that pamphlet of dinner with a perfect stranger and thought it was just going to be something you share for family and friends, right? If you could talk to him now, because someone else is sitting on an idea just like this, right? Someone else has something that they're like, ah, my book was the exact same situation. I thought it was going to be a pamphlet. So if you could talk to that person right now and say something to kind of bless them, encourage them. What would you say to the person who is where you were? Yeah, I would just say if God has put this on your heart, do it and do it well. Make it good. Which I think honestly is how God was able to uh take dinner with a perfect stranger and do with it what he did. It's really good. It's a great little book. And so I would just encourage anybody to put their heart into it and to do it in such a way that they are pleased with the product. And it's like, hey, this is a really good song. This is a really good painting. This is a really good book, whatever it might be. um I think if we are producing things, that we are convinced, this will be, I think this will be a blessing to people. I don't know if it's gonna be a blessing to 10 people or 100 people or a million people. I'm gonna leave that in God's oh but I'm gonna throw my heart into this because this is who God has made me to be and oh I wanna be a blessing to people. Then I think God honors that and oh he will use it. There's a reason. why God gives each of us the abilities that he gives us, both in the creative realm and what we might call the non-creative realm, know, administrative tasks or whatever, which are, you know, the bane of my life. um So, you know, I think it pleases God for us to make ourselves available to him and to say, God, this is who you've made me to be and I'm gonna go for this. couldn't be better spoken in terms, again, the sincerity of your heart toward God and toward what you've done. And I'm sure that is kind of what you share with freewithgod.com, which is what you share now in terms of your other resources and things like that. So we encourage you guys, everything's in the show notes. Go check out David Gregory's resources, his books, which clearly have the heart of God behind them, because he's not concerned about how many they sell. So let's go out and buy some and make... And remind people that, there are great creators who have created works that have blessed millions, but more importantly, are touching one heart at a time. So David, this has been a blessing, man. Thank you so much for sharing. Thank you. I'm so glad that God put us together. And I hope this will not be the last time that we talk about books, creativity, faith. And uh who knows, maybe the next time we'll be talking, there will be a children's movie out because of a story that you wrote that you had no expectations for. And God uses that. time has just flown by and so it's been a blessing to me. I'm so glad you invited me on.